Jack "The Manassa Mauler" Dempsey (66-6-11 W/51 KO's)
Age: 25
Height: 6'1"
Age:25 Weight: 190-195
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 200-205
Location? Madison Square Garden & Yankee Stadium >>> New York, NY (This one is just too big for one venue/stadium)
Referee? Either Dave Barry or Joe Walcott...(lol)
* The main question: Will 'Happy Jack' and his 'plaster of paris' plaster-poor-Joe-all-the-way-to-Paris? Or...will 'The Brown Bomber' send Jack and his 'sidewalls' and hair tonic right back into the 1920's?
No...I'm not drunk folks, but I can't figure out how to straighten these damn columns...(It's not quite as easy as it sounds, as this feature is a tad bit 'user-unfriendly'...;-(
Timekeeper = Well...since we are going to be having one of these two as the "third man in the ring", perhaps it would be wou've of us to have an attorney as timekeeper? Bardelli -- this will be your duty.
Announcing Crew = Adding a bit of 'modern flavor' to the fesitivities, it will be the young 'triple-threat' trio of the following...
B."Bizzy" Bizzack
Doc Deacon "The Fight Beacon"
Troy "T.O/Czechmate" Ondrizek
( Or...I could perhaps just do it all myself ala Cosell & Dunphy? Hey, as far as 'catch phrases'? Let me tell ya' -- I've got em'. Random example: "And DOWN to the 'wild blue yonder' goes 'Jolted Joe"! * Note - With me smoking my pipe and the other two with their cigars...there is going to be one helluva smoke cloud in the area. Keep note of this, as this could contribute to a controversial ending for the ages! *The infamous Louis-Dempsey "smokeout/smoke bomb"!* )
Up in the studio will be the following crew...
The always analytical Greg Smith and Dave "Murph" Murphy, as well as the colorful John Madden/Jesse Ventura like Johnny Bos in all his flamboyant garb. "EZ-E" will add added 'flavor', as well designated historians Mike Casey and Mike Dunn. From a more technical aspect, we will have analysts Kenny "Well Done" Weldon and John "The Iceman" Scully. * Weldon and Scully would make an interesting sort of young vs. old sort of duo, even though Scully really isn't "all that young" anymore. ( Sorry 'Ice', hey -- I'm not far behind you in that respect, and just about anyone will seem young next to the "nearly-as-old-as-dirt-and-Everlast" Weldon.)
Ring announcer? Yours truly. ( I have the voice and the hair for it.) I will also be doing the National Anthem on guitar. ( * No, don't worry...I'm not going to do a 'Jimi Hendrix Woodstock/Vietnam era' anthem here, nor will I dramatically alter the true original. It will either be done on classical guitar or electric guitar with small orchestra. And yes -- I will have my pipe for added 'effect'.)
'Roving reporters'? = Michael Amakor & The Filipino "Wax Man".
Ringside special guests? Jim Amato, Ted Sares, Mr.Bill, Jerry Fitch, and Sal. (You five are kinda "five peas in a pod" and not much for the 'limelight'.)
Oh...special V.I.P guest?
Howard Hughes. He'll be observing from a safe distance in a box high up above.
( LOL...very few will actually 'get' that last little 'zinger' there...;-)
BTW - Hmm...It actually looks like that pic of Joe is that of a 30-something one ( * The lines on the forehead and moustache are kind of a dead giveaway...perhaps I should have used one of the 20-something Joe for authenticity purposes...)
P.S - Jim, straighten out those columns if you could. It's late and I can't figure the damn thing out right now.
* Note - While some may find this a bit of a surprise, 'back in the day' the prevailing general thought amongst the pundits was that Dempsey would be just "far too much" for Joe, and likely stop him in the very early going. While this may or may not have been true, I think it's pretty safe to say that the following probably is...
#1 - Sometimes, pundits/historians will tend to give less credit - at least initially - to the "new/reigning" champion than they do previous ones, especially if the previous one was a 'dominant figure' like Dempsey. Also, historians past and present can sometimes be a bit narrow-minded and 'sentimental' ala see the past through somewhat "rose-colored glasses".
#2 - Unfortunately...SOME of these pundits/historians/figures...were also probably a tad bit racist.
LOL, your too much. Were you really wondering about a Dempsey-Louis matchup, or just looking to make the comic scenario surrounding the fight? ;) Not sure who'd win this one, although I lean toward the Brown Bomber, who I think might've a little too slick for Jack, but I wouldn't put a nickle on this one.
It's funny you mention how the pundits favor old over new. Your absolutely right on that. I recall during the Sixties when Ali was in his first run, that they were almost universally in agreement that Joe Louis would wipe the floor with Ali. Later, we saw Ali the beneficary of that same type of thinking. I think it's two fold, there's a nostalgia for the past coupled with selective memory that conjures up the best efforts of said Champion while at the same time letting the nights they weren't so great kind of blur a little bit.
Brian, Murph...I'd lean toward Dempsey for one reason. That crouching style of his. Arturo Godoy gave Joe fits in their first fight with his low crouchng attack. Joe had a hard time figureing him out. Joe made adjustments in the rematch. He used a very punishing uppercut in halting Godoy. Dempsey had much more hand speed and power then Godoy did. I believe with Joe having to punch down and his tendancy to bring his left hand back too low, that would be like an open invitation for Jack to bomb away with his right hand. This would have been a thriller.
Jim- You know, I actually thinking of the Max Schmelling qoute "I see something" and Jack's vaunted Right Hand (Plaster or not,Bizzy ;) ) and wondering if maybe your right.
Well, Brian, Dreamfights 2 may not generate as much interest as Dream Fight Doubleheader simply because Dempsey and Lewis aren't as well known as Galento and Carnera and Kahn ...
But you did make a wise decision in giving Ted "Jacuzzi" Luzzi the promotional duties. That ought to help the gate considerably. The only thing you might want to consider changing is the ring announcer. I heard he might be to bizzy to be available on fight night anyway.
I have pasted my original comments about the fight just below. I was going with Louis by razor thin decision but after looking at the two photos, I may have to switch to Jack. In the photos, Jack looks like a hungry predator waiting to rip the intestines out of his prey. Joe looks like a mid life crisis waiting to happen ...
Well, I guess we all have Pastrano to thank for this turn of events.
Here are my original remarks:
Boy, Pastrano asks the tough ones ... Dempsey v. Louis is a fantasy match right up there with the likes of Willie Pastrano v. Bob Foster. My inclination is to go with a prime Louis over a prime Dempsey, but there's little to choose between them. I think Dempsey was a smarter fighter and more savage than Joe but he was also easier to hit. Louis had the kind of stiff, strong jab that could help to offset Dempsey's aggressiveness and Joe could hit with power in either hand. Both were durable and had the ability to recuperate after being hurt. I'd have to go with Louis simply because I think his powerful rights to the side of Dempsey's head would be more effective in the long run than Dempsey's hooks to the ribs and jaw of Louis ... plus, Joe was 5-10 pounds heavier than Jack at prime weights. But this one could go either way. It would definitely be a bruise-fest.
If the testimony of Jack Sharkey means anything -- him being the lone fighter to go against both Dempsey and Louis -- then the water only gets muddier. If I remember correctly, Sharkey said that Dempsey would whip Louis if the fight was held in a phone booth. Sharkey fought an aging Dempsey in 1926 and was beating him until foolishly turning his head to argue with the ref about a low blow and feeling the full force of a Dempsey left to the chops. Almost a decade later, Sharkey, an ex-champ by then, fought an up-and-coming Louis and got knocked down several times before knocked out in the third or fourth round. Sharkey's famous comment after the fight was that Louis would ask you if you were OK after he knocked you down. Dempsey would snarl and say "Aren't you dead yet?".
Thanks for bringing this one up, Pastrano. "Ratflmaeo!"
Oops ... small correction. Dempsey and Sharkey actually went at it in July of 1927 at Yankee Stadium, not 1926 as stated above. It was also the first $1 million gate for a non-title fight. I don't think Joe Walcott was the ref, though.
A record crowd of 89 451 fans fill the stadium for this one. Madision square garden has over 20.000 coming in for a closed circut broadcast.Two of boxings most famous heavyweight champions at their peak tonight in a titantic struggle. Jack Dempsey vrs Joe Louis! Both louis and Dempsey are waiting in their dressing rooms as it would have caused too much crowd disruption to have them come in later. The excitment and anticipation is like nothing ever seen before! The crowd is already roaring . Both fighters are expected to attack savagely at the bell and a ko is anticipated.Its onjly minutes before the big fight is on! In the semi final it was Bob Foster vrs Willie Pastrono. Promoter Luzzi was the referee for this one and he stopped the fight at 36 seconds of round one. Luzzi stopped the fight. Of course much of the crowd saw only two light jabs landed by Pastrono and protested that luzzi stopped it early but Luzzi AKA Pastrano 2called it as he saw it and stoped the fight. "The tremodous power of Pastros jabs is hard to see if your not actualy in the ring. I knew Foster could not go on." was his quote.Then the Two heavyweight rivals were lead to the ring. A scowling Dempsey and a rock faced Joe Louis.Fans are jumping up and down in waves. even from the dugout roof fans are leapingup and down. Its a amazing scene and the fighters have not even traded blows yet!Louis and Dempsey about to trade smashing blowsIn front of a great crowd!
This fight has captured the publics imagination like no other. Dempsey pawing the ring in his corner unshaven and scowling is the Manassa Mauler a brutal and dangerous puncher capeable of inflicting fearsome physicial damage on a man and was a merciless finisher.Joe Louis sleek and showing class form every step is one of the most destructive fighters ever.Louis is supreamly graceful yet teriffically powerful and has dazzling hand speed.Both are very fast for heqavyweight and neither has ever fought another man with such talents. Theres the Bell.Dempsey lighting quick comes out in his famous crouch making him hard to hit solidly. He wants to get inside Louis reach. Louis is jabbing to keep dempsey of and boxing in circles as he did with Braddock and Baer. Louis has so many quick wins its sometimes for gotton how good a boxer he is.The restr of the fight is to be determined by Amatos readers comments.
Ah, yes, the Pastrano jab is thing of devastating beauty to behold and a wonder to taste, kind of like Pastrano on rye. I'm surprised Foster landed as long as he did. Pfflmarfeo!
I love all the descriptive adjectives and phrases in Pastrano's last two posts. They're so good, you'd almost think Luzzi was the writer.
Anyway ... I think the early rounds go to Dempsey. He is a savage swarmer known for quick KOs. Joe is cautious at the start, jabbing steadily but not as stiff and hard as he will be jabbing as the fight progresses. Dempsey is pounding away with lefts and welcoming the chance to get inside, where he likes to try and flail away with both hands to the midsection. Louis is quite strong, however, and not easy to manipulate or to hit squarely.
Dempsey's nose is bleeding in round three and his face is red from Joe's jabs and occasional rights, but Jack is ever the aggressor. Mostly Joe is doing a good job of deflecting Dempsey's hooks but it is clear that Dempsey's bobbing and weaving is causing Joe some difficulty. Joe will adapt to this and eventually land some crisp uppercuts, but it takes time to measure Dempsey's rhythm and Jack is vey savvy in the ring. Dempsey looks the worse for wear, but he is carrying these early rounds with his effective aggressiveness ...
By the way a note to Brian Bizzack. If you have a e-mail or whatever for me to send stuff to I wold love to start writing stories for Amato boxing again.Looks like Dempsey is off to a good start against louis than you Mike Dunn!
Louis is a marvelous counter puncher and he has the best left jab in heavyweight history .He is starting to land his left jabs that shoot through Dempsey guard in round 4 thru 6.Each jab is fast and the ones that land thud home hard on to Dempsey and keep Dempsey occupied.. Then Louis hooks off the jab showing perfect form then the big punch his terifffic right follows. This one two combo is effective and Louis is turning it around although you would not know it by his deadpan expression. Louis has bided his time and is now piling up points.Dempsey urged on by his corner now springs into action in round seven. Dempsey dropped Tunney and koed Sharkey in round seven of two imoportant fights..Can Jack do the same to Louis? Dempsey begins swing for the ko unleashing punches that are known for there teriffic power and velocity! Its Dempseys clout vrs Louis class! Both men are puting out every ounch of power as they drive in their punches with destrutive tenique! There is a teriffic scene with the crowd coming to its feet as both men fire ripping effective blows!
I rate these guys the two greatest heavyweights we ever had, but oddly enough I've never had a problem figuring out who would win a head to head. It would end very quickly and Dempsey would be the one to end it. Jack is now something of a new hero to the new-age blood-and-thunder lovers, but what has been forgotten - or simply neglected - is that he was also a boxer of cunning cleverness. He knocked out men with nine-inch jolts to the heart and - save for the Firpo fight - was not a reckless attacker. Studying films of all the champions from short range, Dempsey is off the charts - well ahead of Louis in second place and miles ahead of the rest. His slip-and-duck rate was phenomenal, as was the peak Joe Frazier.
Dempsey was tougher and more rugged than Louis, faster all-round and only marginally slower in hand speed. And we know that Joe started slowly.
Slightly irrelevant trivia point to sign off with: Did you realise that Frazier's left hook was as fast as Ali's jab?
This has certainly been a Battle for the Ages ... seven rounds now completed and the fight is a virtual deadlock. Dempsey's aggressiveness and two-fisted attack carried the early rounds, but Joe's stiff jab and counter punching put Jack off stride in the fourth, fifth and sixth rounds.
The seventh round was the most savage of all, with Louis taking more chances now and trading with Dempsey. The switch in tactics may have been a mistake as the Brown Bomber got nailed with several hard hooks to the chops. Louis also landed solidly to head and body, though. Basically an even round after all of the carnage is evaluated by the judges,
Both men have tasted leather and are showing the effects. Dempsey is bleeding slightly from nose and mouth and his left eye is puffy from Louis's jolting jabs. Louis has also started to swell around the right eye and his jaw is also swelling.
At the start of the eighth round, Dempsey presses forward. About 30 seconds into the round, Louis crosses with a stiff counter right and Jack goes down on one knee. It's not a dramatic knockdown but it isn't a flash knockdown either. Dempsey gets up at the count of 3 and takes a mandatory 8 count. He is somewhat shaken but his head appears to be clear.
But what's this? Louis, slightly out of character, looks around as he is standing in the neutral corner. He finally points and peers down at ringside where journalist Mike Casey is sitting as Dempsey is getting up from the knockdown. "What do you think of your prediction now?" Louis seems to be saying to Casey.
Dempsey, anger showing in his countenance, doesn't consider backpedaling for a second. He wades into Louis with a renewed ferocity. Louis, calm as a windless sea, is forced back into the ropes. Dempsey, flailing away relentlessly, actually carries the the rest of the round. He doesn't land flush as he did in round seven, but he is forcing the action and Louis is content to tie him up inside and throw a succession of jabs. It is still Louis's round on the cards because of the knockdown. The question is whether it will be a 2-point round or a 1-point round under the 10-point must system.
I love Dempsey, he's one of my favorite fighters, but I have to go with Joe Louis in this one.
I think it would be a heck of a fight with alot of ebb and flow....could go either way but I'll go with Louis by late TKO somewhere around the 13th-14th round.
Slightly irrelevant trivia point to sign off with: Did you realise that Frazier's left hook was as fast as Ali's jab?
Mike- That's interesting, was that actually timed by somebody? One thing some people might not know about Fraziers left hook that he mentioned in his autobiography, and that's that his left arm was damaged on the farm in South Carolina as a small child(he fell in with the Hogs and got roughed up) and lacking proper medical care, it healed in unnatural position....which left it cocked perfectly for deleivering a left hook.
I love Dempsey, he's one of my favorite fighters, but I have to go with Joe Louis in this one.
I think it would be a heck of a fight with alot of ebb and flow....could go either way but I'll go with Louis by late TKO somewhere around the 13th-14th round.
Hi,John- Glad to see you found the place. Jim made a good point about Dempsey's Righthand, and if Schmelling's Right hands were unstoppable in their first fight, then Jack would've had similar success landing them had they fought at that stage of Louis' career, it's hard to imagine Joe surviving. As to whether that was the case later on in Louis' career is debatable, he was still dropped a few times along the way. The Godoy example Jim used was also a good one to support a Dempsey win. Since I've already changed course once in this thread, I better keep riding this horse..............on BoxingBB I can afford to be wishy-washy and switch back, but not here ;)
Ah Its like the good old days with lots of comments and insiteful discussions! Whne I see the speed and hitting power of Dempsey I believe he would have won -then I see how marvelous and good and power punching louis was. Its all on film how truely great both were. We seem to find so clear cut answer here.
Love all the great comments. Louis v. Dempsey certainly generates lots of excitement and interest.
Snce we're kind of in the middle of the fight now with Louis slightly ahead, I must confess to a personal bias toward Dempsey. He was my dad's favorite. One of my prized possessions is an autographed copy of a Dempsey photo that my dad got in 1930 or 1931 when Dempsey came to the Pearl Theater in Philadelphia. My dad was 7 or 8 at the time.
Though my heart says Dempsey, my head still says Louis. Dempsey's weaving, aggressive style left him open to counter blows and Louis was an outstanding counter puncher. You could say that Godoy's weaving style gave Louis fits the first time around, but it's also true that Dempsey took quite a beating from Bill Brennan in December of 1920 before finally doing away with Brennan in the 12th round. Dempsey may have been difficult to nail with a clean blow on the chin because of the way he kept his head down and moved from side to side, but he wasn't hard to hit. His eyes were cut in both Tunney fights and in the Sharkey fight. He was also cut in the Brennan fight and his ear was bleeding profusely.
All things being equal, I suspect that Louis's blows would take a greater toll over the course of 15 rounds than Dempsey's savage two-fisted assault.
Of particular note here is Mike Casey's which I shall first touch upon. That does make sense Mikey. But could have Dempsey - never before facing such a deadly and accurate puncher - in his possible overzealousness and perhaps a bit bordering-on-wild rush...maybe 'walk into one' by the 'sharpshooting' Joseph???
*BOOM...1-SHOT = OVER???*
Also, I was going to touch upon the unlikely before Mike (Dunn) did...
What if the fight went the distance??? ( * With these two fellas KO-ratio...I would imagine that the 'over/under' on that would be pretty slim! But hey -- it's unlikely but possible...)
Also...
Does anyone happen to know the reach/arm length of these two? ( I'll try and look that up ) And despite being APRX. the same size and both being 'solid', these two were built/proportioned much differently. Dempsey had the legs of a middleweight and the upper-body of a heavyweight, whereas Joe almost had the opposite. But...they could both certainly punch!
"In these pictures...Jack looks like a hungry young predator waiting to rip the intestines out of his prey. By contrast...Joe looks like a mid-life crisis waiting to happen..." - Mike Dunn
(HAHAHA!!!)
Yeah Mike...I thought that pic of Jack was just BAD ASS and COOL looking. I'd never seen that pic before, and I thought it was just 'CLASSIC'. I might even blow it up and frame it and put it next to my Tony Galento one. As for the pic of the (30-something) Joe...ehh...I'm not quite sure why I chose that pic in all honesty Mike! ( I think it was getting late and I just said "to hell with it" LOL...)
BTW - As I told Mike Casey once on another thread, Jack Dempsey ("the sidewalls") Gene Tunney ("hurricane hair") and Floyd Patterson ("the fin") without-a-doubt had the coolest hairstyles in Boxing history.
This folks I'm afraid...is something that cannot even be argued.
Yes, Murph, the Frazier hook v Ali's jab was timed by one of those clever bods who takes it frame by frame etc. It surprised me too.
Bizzy, you pose a mischievous question, but nobody took out Dempsey with one shot and Joe wouldn't have been the first.
Also forgotten in the mists of time is the collective astonishment of the great managers and trainers at how quickly Dempsey could recover from a hammer blow. They could never get over or figure out how he could keep punching when he was knocked out on his feet. Long after his retirement, when he was being goaded by Tony Galento in Lou Stillman's gym, Dempsey got into the ring and knocked out Tony with one left hook, splitting his forehead in the process.
Fireman Jim Flynn was the only KO loss on Jack's record, and it is now more or less certain that a starving Dempsey went into the tank that day.
We still don't know how many hundreds of fights he had in total, including street and bar brawls for money. Former Ring editor Nat Loubet told a source of mine that Jack literally killed a bully in a boxcar fight.
A couple comments. That picture of Dempsey I believe is from before his fight with Carpentier. There is a story about Dempseys fight with Bill Brennen that is intresting. Dempsey had fought Brennen before he won the title. Brennen was a go0d fighter but Dempsey koed him in 6 .The second fight was a attempt to show off Dempsey in Madison square garden and to New York fans. New York was the biggest Market then and Dempseys first two title fights had been elsewhere so a exciting fight showing off Dempsey would be good business showing Dempsey to east coast fans when they wanted to have one of those big outdoor fights they hoped for and later had with Dempsey.Brennen was not expected to win but be good enough to ,as in the first fight , to have it go a few rounds and so give the fans a show. Everyone else in the heavyweight Division would be expected to get blasted early. Remember before clobbering Jess Willard Dempsey had koed the two top number one contenders Fred Fulton and Carl Morris both in the very first round and that is what Earned him the title shot. New York and Tex Rickard did not want more first round koes!Brennen himself wanted the fight and by most accounts was a very decent person but he had some mob buddies who had a plan of there own.All fighters are human not rock -up and sock -um robets and this was true of Dempsey and his weakness all his life was women.During Jacks training a woman showd up at his training camp. Jack liked them with dark hair and pretty in a certain way and this girl was just his type. Dempsey and this mystery woman had a passionate affair. (Jack was not Married then) They fucked their brains out and had quite them time and Dempseys training was way below his usual amount also just before the Brennen fight she suddenly dumped Dempsey and not in a nice way.Well of course Dempsey had his training affected badly and was not in the best shape or the best frame of mind for the Brennen fight. He won after trailing during the the fight with a come from behind ko but it was his worst fight. Later the story came out that the Girl was a highly paid hooker hired to romance and then drop Dempsey by mob guys who bet on Brennen! By all accounts Brennen was not in or aware of the plot.
The second Dempsey story is also I hope intresting. Al Capone was a huge Dempsey fan.Capone was located in Chicago as was the second Tunney fight. Lets face Al Capone in the 1920ties in Chicago got whatever he wanted and he wanted a Dempsey win. Capone was often in Dempeys training camp and knew Dempsey and talked to him often. Capone told Dempey he could arrange a "friendly " referee for the second fight with Tunney. Dempsey was one of the few that could say no to Al Capone and told him he wanted to and was sure he could win the fight without extra referee help so there was no need.Of course we all know what happened. With a Capone picked Referee the fight likley would have had a different winner but Dempsey wanted to win or lose on the square.Just thought these two stories in the wild and wooly roaring twenties would be intresting.
During Jacks training a woman showd up at his training camp. Jack liked them with dark hair and pretty in a certain way and this girl was just his type. Dempsey and this mystery woman had a passionate affair. (Jack was not Married then) They fucked their brains out and had quite them time and Dempseys training was way below his usual amount also just before the Brennen fight she suddenly dumped Dempsey and not in a nice way.Well of course Dempsey had his training affected badly and was not in the best shape or the best frame of mind for the Brennen fight. He won after trailing during the the fight with a come from behind ko but it was his worst fight. Later the story came out that the Girl was a highly paid hooker hired to romance and then drop Dempsey by mob guys who bet on Brennen! By all accounts Brennen was not in or aware of the plot.
LOL!!! I've often heard of that happening with overseas fights, the one that most immediately comes to mind is from the book Weigh-in by Frazier Scott the night before he fought Benvenutti, and I'm sure there have been countless others. Now a Trainer/Manager who's young enough to get by with it, can "protect" his fighter by switching rooms with him and enduring the "hardship" himself. I wonder if any of those on this Forum that are involved in the business can interject anything, I bet they have some real stories ;)
I have heard of a fighter that use to give after dinner talks and was asked about groupies . His reply was funny . It was "alas I fear no ass comes my way" -lol
By the way back to the iron fists of Jack Dempsey vrs the sharp crushing power of Joe Louis. An old 50ties magazine analyzed them and said that Louis held his hands lower than his trainer wanted and from beginning to the end of his career this was true. Louis liked best to counterpunch after frustrating foes with his poleax jab.Holding his hands a little low gave him a split second more speed and Jack Blackburn never could cure him of that bad habit. It made Louis easier to hit and was a flaw in his otherwise near perfect craft and was the reason Louis was knocked down by six foes.Dempsey dropped his left just as he made his famous charges and it left him vunrable to a quick stright rights as he came in and Tunney capolized on that as you seen in their fights. Of course Dempsey was well past his best then. Dempsey rarely had trouble putting foes out as few could stand up to the business end of A Dempsey bomb.I think this fight comes down to how well Louis could defend and stand up to Dempseys best hits. I think Louis would land more frequently but Dempsey had a very fast recovery rate when hurt so wouldlikely have gone a number of rounds with louis .Both mens were so fast that their punches would catch the oppnent by surpise.Many of Dempseys koes were described as "gunfighter quick" He could ko a figher with just one flush shot. Louis blows inflicted shock too but it was the combinations that usually finished them.Dempsey charging forward and Louis trying to keep distance and counter. . Likely to result in some fierce exchanges.
Casey: "Bizzy, you pose a mischievous question..."
Bizzy: "And I was puffing on the ol' 'diabolical tastemaker' (tobacco pipe) and sipping on cognac when I posed it my good friend..." (LOL!)
And yes...I actually didn't know until fairly recently that when somebody yelled "Fireman in the theater", that ol' Jack went into an act of theatrics himself! Here is how I was ironically made privy to that little (basically a fact...)
I was kind of consoling a hvy friend of mine who had just been KO'd. I presented a list of former hvy's that had been KO'd (the list read like a who's-who of all-time greats) and among them was Jack...
Friend: "Hey thanks, much appreciated...but Dempsey went into the tank, ya' know..."
These stories about Dempsey's prowess in the ring and with the ladies are very interesting. I didn't know that there was any dispute about the Fireman Jim Flynn KO and I also didn't know about the pre-fight affair prior to the Brennan defense.
I did do a rather indepth feature on the Brennan fight some years ago -- I called it "Dempsey's Forgotten Title Defense" -- and went to the archives of the New York newspapers along with some other sources. Dempsey's night life was well known and commonly reported. He trained rigorously during the day and played even harder at night while in New York. Nat Fleischer was writing for one of the NY papers at the time and apparently saw Dempsey out on the town or got first-hand reports about Jack's adventures.
I think Dempsey's near downfall in that fight wasn't because of his lothario ways, though. That was just a symptom. The real problem was overconfidence. Brennan was a very tough, very good fighter but Dempsey had flattened him in February of 1918, knocking him down numerous times. Brennan even broke his ankle as he was falling to the canvas.
Dempsey was savage in the ring, but he was also human. He didn't focus the way he should have for Brennan and it very nearly cost him the crown. Dempsey took a vicious beating before finally wearing Brennan down and ultimately knocking him out with a stiff right under the heart in the 12th round. Dempsey's ear was bleeding quite badly when the fight ended. "That Mick gave me a beating," Dempsey told reporters in the dressing room.
Dempsey personally liked Brennan and felt bad when Brennan was shot dead in a speakeasy he owned in New York a few years later.
As for the Fireman fake KO, I've never heard this before now. The only article I remember reading about the fight several years ago said something about Dempsey entering the ring without a sweat. In other words, he didn't warm up before the fight. Maybe that indicates that he knew he wasn't going to be in the ring very long. As I recall, he was knocked down three times in the first round, though the details are a bit fuzzy now ...
Anyway, enjoyed the provocative reports re: Dempsey and also enjoyed Pastrano's take on Dempsey v. Louis. I'd have to say it's right on target.
Mike Dunn
P.S. One little detail about the Dempsey-Louis fight I forgot to mention earlier. When Louis peered over the ropes during the eighth round and spotted Mike Casey at ringside, Casey was sitting next to Jennifer Lopez. Go figure.
One thing about Dempsey that I didn't particulary care about was the way he would criticise and denigrate Rocky Marciano. 'The Rock' was a class guy and while he may have told one of his brothers or good friends in private that he "would have licked so-and-so", he would never do so in public.
( Wait a minute...)
Okay......somebody here just pointed out the following and said...
"Yeah, but what about the time when Larry Holmes said that Rocky "couldn't carry my jockstrap"!!!??? You never said that bothered you any, Bizzy???"
( Damn...ol' Bizzy just got WHACKED I'm afraid...I had better go into the 'bob-and-weave'...)
Bizzy: "That was just much, much different I'm afraid..." (LOL!)
( * And besides -- he apologized many times over damnit, and it came out in a time of 'emotional distress'! )
P.S - Casey sitting next to Lopez? That should come as no surprise, look at the chap: Looks just like a young Robert Redford! (lol)
"Yeah, but what about the time when Larry Holmes said that Rocky "couldn't carry my jockstrap"!!!??? You never said that bothered you any, Bizzy???"
( Damn...ol' Bizzy just got WHACKED I'm afraid...I had better go into the 'bob-and-weave'...)
Bizzy: "That was just much, much different I'm afraid..." (LOL!)
( * And besides -- he apologized many times over damnit, and it came out in a time of 'emotional distress'! )
Bizzy- Yes, spoken in the aftermath of a disappointing loss, and also in the wake of Peter Marciano spending the entire week badmouthing Larry at every stop. Okay for him to be there, and even okay if he wanted to show up and actually root for Spinks I guess, but name another historical circumstance where the past recordholder or his family displayed so little class? Hell, even Hank Aaron forced himself to say some kind words on tape to Balco Barry. When they passed out class in the Marciano clan, I think Rocky got both portions :(
Murph - You make an excellent point, and one I had forgotten about: Rocky may have been a class guy - and perhaps his brother Peter is too - but he sure as hell didn't act like it in the days leading up to that fight. At ALL.
Well it looks to me that the site has picked Dempsey over Louis in a close one. So we will have Dempsey end their grueling fight with a whistleing left hook in round 11. It happened with Louis putting a violent assult on Dempsey in round 11. Joe is clearly ahead on points over Dempsey at this point.A vicious two punch combination by Louis drops Dempsey to his knee at the start of the round. . DEmpsey is up and is wanders around the ring seemingly out . Louis hesitates and the referee askes Dempsey if his is ok. Tough-guy Dempsey seems to be angry at the refs question and starts gestering with both hands and interups and talks over the referees questions and the referee and Dempsey seem to get into a argument as Louis waits and waits in the neutral cornmer!! Dempsey suddely yells "Ime fine" and rushes past the referee to louis and lands ashort left that jolts Louis and seperates him from his mouthpiece and drops him on his pants! Louis gets up inspired to fight back. Dempsey rushes past the referee again asking no questions now and hits the suprised Louis with a vicious right uppercut and then a tremdous left thrown from the floor and Louis is knocked to the canvas!@lOUIS tries to get up and beat the count but too late its all over! at 2:22 of the round Louis fans scream foul over Dempsey long pause argumnet with the referee and then his rushing past the referee. However the decision stands and whats a Dempsey fight without controvercy.
Ted, I can't argue a bit with that scenario. As you so aptly noted, what's a Dempsey fight without a controversy? Jack got up off the canvas twice in the fight and rallied to finally KO Louis in the 11th. Though my head still says Louis by close decision, my heart was always with Dempsey ...
I guess Casey ended up hitting a home run after all.
Well Bizzy and Mike D. I certainly would never be suprised if Louis had won I was just trying to reflect the opinions expressed- Certainly more are welcome.Did you know Brian that Dempsey actually If I remember right managed Galento at one time. Tony was not training much during that period and Dempsey tried to talk to him while Tony was sparning .Dempsey told Tony he was wasting Dempseys money and time by not follwing his trainers instructions and not training right. Galento starting boasting about how he could beat "those bums" he was fighting with little effort.Dempsey who I believer was in his 40ties at that time took of his jacket and climed into the ring and told tony let me show you something.He told Tony even a old guy like me could block and counter you with what your doing. Tony popped of at Dempsey again and jack told him to try to land one on him. Galento fired his hook at the now angry Dempsey. Dempsey, who never learned to pull his punches, ducked than let go a zinger of a left himself that dug into Tonys ample belly and sent a whoose of air from Galento and put rubber in his legs. Dempsey discusted then told Glaento he was fired and get hiself a new manager.
iT Started way back in history with Adrock, M.C.A., and me Mike D. Mr Louis was the perfect punching machine. yet, max took em out, that nite jack wins it. any other louis takes em apart. Monzon.
Great story Luzzi -- I had never heard that one!!!
P.S - And yes...judging by what Dempsey (supposedly) did to Howard Hughes -- he did NOT ever learn to 'pull his punches'! (LOL!)
* The story is (for those that may not know) that back in the 1920's, the very eccentric multi-millionaire Howard Hughes just "wanted to see what it felt like being KO'd by the world hvy champ". ( * Note - Boy, this fellow kind of had 'one-up' on George Plimpton in this respect huh fellows??? Kinda like 'Plimpton on LSD'! LOL! ) Anyhow, to make a long story short (or perhaps a short-story-long!) Hughes didn't really 'feel' much of anything, as he was promptly put into 'la-la land' by Dempsey!
( * Just like the Galento and Jackie Gleason story folks, I don't know if these stories are true, or half-true and exaggerated, but by-god they are kind of funny -- so I'm just going to consider them as true and factual! LOL )
Slightly irrelevant trivia point to sign off with: Did you realise that Frazier's left hook was as fast as Ali's jab? 
