I think Mike highly underestimates Joe's HEART ! The Joe Frazier of March 8, 1971 was truly great. That Joe against Mike on his best day ? I'll take " The Smoke ".
Boy if this magazine cover doesn't bring back memories...I had this magazine as a young kid, and I also recall the SI one the year before with Holmes/Cooney on the cover. Those were the days, eh?
By god...in looking at that date...Joe wasn't that old himself when this pic was taken...geez...he was right about the same age as I am now...(!)
BTW - Mike may have said that in his younger years perhaps. I would give him a SLIGHT nod over Frazier, but if the fight went into the later rounds -- it would have been Joe's.
Boy if this magazine cover doesn't bring back memories...I had this magazine as a young kid, and I also recall the SI one the year before with Holmes/Cooney on the cover. Those were the days, eh?
By god...in looking at that date...Joe wasn't that old himself when this pic was taken...geez...he was right about the same age as I am now...(!)
BTW - Mike may have said that in his younger years perhaps. I would give him a SLIGHT nod over Frazier, but if the fight went into the later rounds -- it would have been Joe's.
* That pic enlarges nicely.
Bizz- I remember this issue came out not long before Smokin' Joe made that foolish comeback fight against Jumbo Cummings. As for the SI cover with Cooney-Holmes, do you remember how it was a fold out, with Cooney on the actual cover and you had to pull out the page to view Holmes? Larry saw that, and wasn't too happy with it......SI didn't do Gerry Cooney any favors doing it that way ;)
* I wish I still had those two mags...but I think my Mom threw them out with my old stash of Playboys.
;-(
Bizzy- Yeah, I was rooting for Holmes in that one (My Dead Irish relatives please forgive me ;)) and when I read that Holmes, who wasn't too happy on taking equal money with the challenger anyway, was absolutely irate that the HW Champion was on the INSIDE Page and the Challenger on the Cover, I was like "OH YEAH, THANK YOU SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" lol
Would Joe have handed Tyson his ass? It's possible -- but I don't think so. I like Tyson there. Have I been wrong before?
Bizzy- Of course nothing would be ertain in that matchup other than probably a lot of clinching and nobody taking a backwards step, but I'd like Smoking Joe's chances against Tyson. I think Tyson might've brought more firepower, and even that's a debatable point, but I think Joe could TAKE a little bit more. I look at the fights with Quarry and Bonavena and ask myself if I think Tyson could've endured that adversity and still emerged victorious and the answer comes back No.
Tyson had a hell of a chin; a very underappreciated one. But 'adversity'?
That's all Joe there.
Bizzy- I think he was damn lucky there weren't any really heavy punchers in the era of the mid to late Eighties. The only one that comes to mind is maybe Witherspoon and he missed facing him. I'll MAYBE give you Razor but after that you get into Evander and Lennox, the guys who stopped him. Frazier might've been stopped by Big George, but I really think you've got to put the checkmark in Joe's corner here as well.
Bizzack, I agree that Tyso would have beaten Marvis at the time they met wether he had neck surgury or not. George Benton was Marvis' trainer when he was a young amateur and pro. Back then Marvis was a guy who could box your ears off. Something Joe can't say about himself. Once Joe got involved with training Marvis, Benton walked away because Joe tried turning him into a brawler instead of the skilled boxer that he was. You don't win national titles unless you can box well. On another note, Tyson would have stood up to Joe for a while but Joe was just too tough. Joe fought Bonavena in a knock down drag out brawl and won the fight. When did Tyson ever do that? Sorry but it all comes down to Will and Balls. Tyson had no Will and no Balls. The first time he faced a guy that would fight back he didn't know what to do, he came back and fought a few bums, so what. Although the 2 fights with the limited Ruddock were impressive wins. Then he went away to prison for a while and when he came back the boxing media bought into his badest man on the planet bullshit. Who did he fight when he got out? McNeeley, Buster Mathis Jr. and Bruce Seldon. And Seldon took a dive, look at the tape. As soon as Tyson got close he laid down. Then Holyfield beat him and after that he just went on with the circus. The guys a friggin flake but don't confuse balls with being mentaly inbalanced.
By god............that was one hell of a thought-provoking post Sal. *taps on temple* As far as Marvis-Tyson -- agreed. As far as Joe-Tyson? Whew...I don't say anything with a strong degree of certainty there...that = a "PIPE BOMB" ( *puffs on pipe*) No, REALLY -- that one is clearly not a stinker...but a 'THINKER'. Sometimes "reality sucks", but sometimes -- it doesn't.
THIS...is PART of what the youth of America should be taught; "Think both INSIDE the BOX-ing...and 'OUTSIDE the BOX-ing'.
A fascinating exchange...and yes; Frazier-Tyson has now become a mandatory 'Dreamfight'...
...RUDDOCK and BRUNO weren't heavy-punchers Murph??????
"Surely you can't be serious!" (And my apologies for calling you Shirley...)
As for Evander and Lewis, good grief...look how many solid punches it took to stop and floor him???!!!
But yes -- adversity factor? Definitely in 'Smoke's corner! *thumb up*
Thats' two (maybe) out of what, like his first 35 opponents? Plus, both of those guys had Tyson wobbled at one point, in fact so did Boneclutcher with what was about the only punch he threw that night. Don't forget that Buster D. wasn't exactly leaving bodies in his wake either. I'm not saying his chin was weak, but I'm pretty sure that Joes chin, which only completely failed him against one guy(argueably the hardest puncher of All Time) was better.
And you have to keep in mind that Frazier got up a few times and made it out of round 1 and he was trying to fight back. He got crushed but he kept coming back for more until his corner stopped the fight. When the Foreman match was made most observers thought it was too early for Foreman to face Joe. Frazier was partying and raising hell leading up to the fight.
When I look at a fighter I take into account where he has been and what is he willing to go through to get to the finish line. When I train an amateur I could tell you who in the gym is going to make it and who won't, based on this. Is the fighter willing to do what is neccesary and is he willing to make weight every week during the tournament. That's what seperates the men from the boys and the boys usually go home empty handed. Frazier is a man and Tyson is a boy.
And you have to keep in mind that Frazier got up a few times and made it out of round 1 and he was trying to fight back. He got crushed but he kept coming back for more until his corner stopped the fight. When the Foreman match was made most observers thought it was too early for Foreman to face Joe. Frazier was partying and raising hell leading up to the fight.
Absolutely, Sal. I think another thing that some people forget is that the Foreman fight happened nearly TWO YEARS after that first meeting with Ali, and in the interim he only fought Terry Daniels, the ex-College Football Player/Law Student turned Boxer, and Ron Stander. Some speculate that Yank Durham knew that the tough battles to that point, including the punishment in the first Ali fight,should've finished Joe,and delaying an Ali rematch or any other tough fight was by design. I know Joe enjoyed the trappings of the title, the new celebrity lifestyle, and all of that......and like everyone else, wasn't too impressed with anything George had done since Mexico City.
Well guys, as far as the chin goes, I think they are pretty damn close: They BOTH had good chins. Actually, I think we pretty much agree with that. Like I said before, I actually think the 'chin' was one of Tyson's most underrated attributes; he didn't lose those fights because of a 'soft chin'.
As far as the heart and will goes, I certainly agree with you on Frazier. And I don't disagree really with you on Tyson, but, despite that, let me say this guys: There are not too many heavyweights in HISTORY that I would pick over a prime Tyson. Are there a few? Yes. But not many. Heck, there aren't really that many I would even pick over the "2nd incarnation" of Tyson, guys. He might have been a bit 'flawed'...but he was FORMIDAMBLE as well. And unless you had all the (VERY rare) necessary attributes to 'off-set' that whirlwind of devastation -- you were simply 'f*cked'.
* Frazier's chin is a bit underrated as well, due to the Foreman fights. But GOOD GRIEF...that WAS FOREMAN! It's kind of like when I heard someone say that Holmes had a 'shaky chin' because he was of all things floored once by EARNIE SHAVERS and by a prime MIKE TYSON as 38 yr.old! Jiminey christmas...Larry had a good chin to be certain, but yeah, the guy was human for christ sake! Anyhow, I've never seen a knockout/knockdown like that Foreman-Frazier one though. He didn't get knocked DOWN -- he got knocked UP! Literally! He looked like a tree-stump being 'de-rooted' from the ground I tell you! I swear to god he briefly 'floated and levitated' in the air for about 10 seconds! ( Well, okay, maybe 'a few seconds'...alright, perhaps 1-second! But I tell you, he didn't just become 'one with the floor' -- he also became 'one with the air' there for a brief second! )
* Your right though...he KEPT on getting up...UNBELIEVABLE, actually...he looked like a brown beachball getting bounced in there...
*just watched the Frazier-Foreman knockdowns again*
Nope guys...I stand by my original estimation: Frazier may not have ever hit the canvas for 10 seconds, but I SWEAR he was in the AIR for 10 seconds...(lol)
Frazier's chin is a bit underrated as well, due to the Foreman fights. But GOOD GRIEF...that WAS FOREMAN! It's kind of like when I heard someone say that Holmes had a 'shaky chin' because he was of all things floored once by EARNIE SHAVERS and by a prime MIKE TYSON as 38 yr.old! Jiminey christmas...Larry had a good chin to be certain, but yeah, the guy was human for christ sake! Anyhow, I've never seen a knockout/knockdown like that Foreman-Frazier one though. He didn't get knocked DOWN -- he got knocked UP! Literally! He looked like a tree-stump being 'de-rooted' from the ground I tell you! I swear to god he briefly 'floated and levitated' in the air for about 10 seconds! ( Well, okay, maybe 'a few seconds'...alright, perhaps 1-second! But I tell you, he didn't just become 'one with the floor' -- he also became 'one with the air' there for a brief second
Bizzy- With Holmes, I think it's not so much the Shavers Knockdown or getting blown away by a Prime Tyson when he was 38, had been off two years, and only had two months to prepare (would the Holmes that had tuneups and fought Mercer three years later have fared better? I don't know), but the real knock on Holmes chin came via the Snipes Fight. When people look for flaws then one fight or two will give them ammunition if that's their misson. Those that knock Lennox's Chin are at a loss to explain how he won those two rematches and also didn't get KO'd by other serious punchers he faced. When you fought 45 times like Lewis or 70 times like Holmes, what are the odds that you can't find two examples of most anything? I'm surprised those that question Holmes Chin don't break out the Butterbean Knock Down and argue that it meant something ;)
P.S. Of course to cover myself, Tyson is an execption to this limited example theory, Early Mike's chin was suspect due to lack of decent punching opponents....just in case you wanted to turn my words around on me ;)
Bizzy- With Holmes, I think it's not so much the Shavers Knockdown or getting blown away by a Prime Tyson when he was 38, had been off two years, and only had two months to prepare (would the Holmes that had tuneups and fought Mercer three years later have fared better? I don't know), but the real knock on Holmes chin came via the Snipes Fight. When people look for flaws then one fight or two will give them ammunition if that's their misson. Those that knock Lennox's Chin are at a loss to explain how he won those two rematches and also didn't get KO'd by other serious punchers he faced. When you fought 45 times like Lewis or 70 times like Holmes, what are the odds that you can't find two examples of most anything? I'm surprised those that question Holmes Chin don't break out the Butterbean Knock Down and argue that it meant something ;)
P.S. Of course to cover myself, Tyson is an execption to this limited example theory, Early Mike's chin was suspect due to lack of decent punching opponents....just in case you wanted to turn my words around on me ;)
Murph...I was indeed about to "twist your words on you", but you yourself twisted and hit from so many different angles in that post...I'm afraid I have become a bit 'discombobulated' and 'bamboozled'...(!)
"Hey, it was very close and competitive until the third round began. It felt like all of a sudden I was fighting not one -- but SIX. There were shots coming from every direction but the grassy knoll...and I think I may have even heard a few from there as well."
"It was like I walked into a 'Murph factory'. Kinda like taking a shower, and then all of a sudden the lights go out and the nozzle gets loose on you..." - Bizzack in post-fight interview.
* BTW - Yes, I 'convientently forgot' about Snipes, but good grief -- Snipes was a good-punching hvy over 200-pounds, and Larry got up! As for Lewis, obviously he doesn't have an 'A-level' chin-of-concrete, but I actually think his is a bit 'underrated' as well. Lenney did not have a bad set of whiskers...
*Sniffs a good dose of the MAX-imum "Schmelling-salts" to try and clear the cobwebs...*
P.S - Had Larry not been coming off the long layoff, he MIGHT have done better, but he might not have. It obviously didn't help him any, but I don't think there is any way in the world a near-40 Holmes beats that Tyson.
As a matter of fact guys...I'm not even entirely certain an under-30 or under-35 Larry beats him, despite the definite similarities to the February 1990 Buster Douglass.I would probably go with a young Larry, but not with a high degree of confidence and not without some level of hesitation. There is a chance that might have been just a bad 'style match up' for Larry, regardless of age. I tend to think not -- but it's a tough call. What Tyson did to even a 38 yr.old ring-rusty Larry was pretty impressive, and testament to his awesome speed and power. While Larry was CLEARLY and significantly past his best, he was not COMPLETELY 'shot' and 'washed up'. Take a look at what he did in his FORTIES for proof of that. Larry...was not an easy guy to beat, and DEFINETLY not an easy guy to KNOCK-OUT, even in his older years...
P.S - Had Larry not been coming off the long layoff, he MIGHT have done better, but he might not have. It obviously didn't help him any, but I don't think there is any way in the world a near-40 Holmes beats that Tyson.
As a matter of fact guys...I'm not even entirely certain an under-30 or under-35 Larry beats him, despite the definite similarities to the February 1990 Buster Douglass.I would probably go with a young Larry, but not with a high degree of confidence and not without some level of hesitation. There is a chance that might have been just a bad 'style match up' for Larry, regardless of age. I tend to think not -- but it's a tough call. What Tyson did to even a 38 yr.old ring-rusty Larry was pretty impressive, and testament to his awesome speed and power. While Larry was CLEARLY and significantly past his best, he was not COMPLETELY 'shot' and 'washed up'. Take a look at what he did in his FORTIES for proof of that. Larry...was not an easy guy to beat, and DEFINETLY not an easy guy to KNOCK-OUT, even in his older years...
Bizzy- If you go back and look at like the 3rd Round(?) of Holmes-Tyson, then it convinces me that Larry Holmes of the early eighties and not the late eighties is everything Mike Tyson can handle and then some. I wasn't going to mention Buster, who's jab didn't compare to Larrys nor did his Righthand, but since you willingly put your Head in that Noose, then I thank you ;)
Murph...I was indeed about to "twist your words on you", but you yourself twisted and hit from so many different angles in that post...I'm afraid I have become a bit 'discombobulated' and 'bamboozled'...(!)
"Hey, it was very close and competitive until the third round began. It felt like all of a sudden I was fighting not one -- but SIX. There were shots coming from every direction but the grassy knoll...and I think I may have even heard a few from there as well."
"It was like I walked into a 'Murph factory'. Kinda like taking a shower, and then all of a sudden the lights go out and the nozzle gets loose on you..." - Bizzack in post-fight interview.
* BTW - Yes, I 'convientently forgot' about Snipes, but good grief -- Snipes was a good-punching hvy over 200-pounds, and Larry got up! As for Lewis, obviously he doesn't have an 'A-level' chin-of-concrete, but I actually think his is a bit 'underrated' as well. Lenney did not have a bad set of whiskers...
*Sniffs a good dose of the MAX-imum "Schmelling-salts" to try and clear the cobwebs...*
:O
"Sorry, and all apologizes to Bizzy, I didn't mean for it to be an ambush", lied Dave Murphy in the post fight interview. ;)
In truth, anyone who thinks Tyson COULDN'T have beaten a prime Joe Fraizer or Larry Holmes no matter what you grade his chin(or heart) is being just as silly. I think Joe and Larry get through it and get Mike in deep water, and I think they do so by more heart and a little bit more Chin, but it's not like they don't face a Storm with Young Tyson and enjoy a Sunday Afternoon Picnic.
Thanks, Sal. I know sometimes over here at AmatoBoxing, I get a bit intimidated by the group, which is the sharpest of any I'VE been involved with on the Internet. In fact, to be honest, it's why I don't bring many of the members of our Site (BoxingBB) over here. This is like a room full of Phd's or something. When someone like You, Jim, Bizzy, Eeeze,Jerry, etc. agree with me on something, I'm pleased but also half releived that I got through without saying something foolish :)
71 Frazier Was Awesome. Could be if 71 Frazier Fought a young tyson- Frazier could be carrying in 7 different types of smoke. Oh boy! I need to sleep. On later. Great board. Mike
Boy if this magazine cover doesn't bring back memories...I had this magazine as a young kid, and I also recall the SI one the year before with Holmes/Cooney on the cover. Those were the days, eh?
