It has been brought to our attention that there are some in the boxing community that believe that the referee involved in the below fight may have shown or indicated a level of 'bias' or 'favortism'. In particular question, are the referees actions after the third knockdown -- and the amount of time elapsed. This opinion was strongly voiced by a member of Amatoboxing, and do NOT necessarily reflect the views of Jim Amato, Brian Bizzack, or anyone else involved or affiliated with Amatoboxing.com
It has been brought to our attention that there are some in the boxing community believe that the referee involved in the below fight may have shown or indicated a level of 'bias' or 'favortism'. In particular question, are the referees actions after the third knockdown -- and the amount of time elapsed. This opinion was strongly voiced by a member of Amatoboxing, and do NOT necessarily reflect the views of Jim Amato, Brian Bizzack, or anyone else involved or affiliated with Amatoboxing.com
You be the judge(s)...(???)
I won't divulge which member strongly voiced this opinion -- but he's a legend. ( No, not me I'm afraid folks. *chuckle*)
Favoritism? Hell no. McCline let Peter off the hook because he was fat and out of shape and winded after two rounds! Notice after the third knockdown how McCline strolls across the ring like he is taking a walk in the park. Hell ... he has to know that time clears a fighter's head. What did he have to fear? Sam Peter is on his heels and now is not the time to go on a picnic. One more knockdown and the fight is over and here is a guy too winded to get the job done. Referee favortism? I don't see it. After Peter gets up and the ref is wiping his gloves and talking to him ... "raise your arms" ... look across the ring and see what McCline is doing. For God's sake ... the walrus is leaning back against the ropes reclining and taking five. He should be starting to leave his corner and not wait for the ref to motion him in ... Peter is on his feet now ... he is fair game. McCline ... you blew the opportunity of a life time. This is not a referee error in judgment. This is McCline's unraveling because he was too out of shape ... too fat ... and too inexperienced!
Well...I think I would have to agree Jabbers. (BTW -- McCline - while having good power - has unfortunately never been a very good 'finisher', and I think he agrees with that much.)
And while I wouldn't go so far as to call him "fat", I've always thought he might be better off just a little lighter. As for his 'air situation' (or lack thereof! LOL) a bit alarming indeed. I haven't quite heard huffing & puffing like that since my late grandfather, and he had emphysema and was a pack-a-day unfiltered Camels smoker. Judas priest, McCline was breathing like a phone-sex operator on commision, or Shannon Briggs...
As for the ref thing...I realize that often times given the promoter pays the judges, and the promoter pays the refs, these things can unfortunately happen. And there was some 'extra time' given after the third knockdown. But...I still just didn't really "see it" either. I played it three times, and no doubt there were some extra seconds given, but still...I just never really "saw it" either.
I'm not saying it is completely out of the realm of possibility, but I am not going to declare this "Bizzy Bomb" here as a "Smart Bomb" or "Stink Bomb". I at first deemed it a "Pipe Bomb" (i.e., a 'hmm/thinker' *puffs on pipe*) and I know may have to declare it an official "Smoke Bomb".
* Note - Could the referee have waved the fight off at some point here? Yeah, I think he could have. I'm not saying I think he SHOULD have, but it wouldn't have been 'outrageous'; Peter was in dire straits, and it was 'bordering' on stoppage material. But alas, it wasn't stopped, and McCline lost a close but accurate decision in my opinion.
( If he's protesting the score...I don't know what he's talking about, and I don't think he has a case. And if he's protesting the ref's actions...in the abscence of some other 'smoking gun' or evidence -- I don't think he has much of a case there either, quite frankly.)
Good call Biz! And I am smiling and laughing at your witicism ... sound like Jim Murray for goodness sakes! I still see McCline recline while the other guy is all but out on his feet and McCline reclines!
docdeacon wrote on Oct 31, '07, edited on Oct 31, '07
Well my official count is 16 seconds of time that elapsed from canvas (1:02) to recommencement (:46). So I can honestly say with a clear conscience that I cant see anythng suspect or dubious. I did in fact notice McClines eerie resemblance to a Whale Shark trolling the depths for plankton during that third round. And by the way what is the official verbiage in the rules regarding a knock down? Is there an accepted amount of time for the ref to determine if a fighter can continue? Here is an idea. Why not have a visible clock or counter linked to the official clock. So in the event that a knock down occurs the time keeper can activate the timer so the ref doesn't get confused or miscount while directing the opponent to a neutral corner etc. And with a little research a average time can be determined and there can be no question as to the legitimacy of a refs count. And at the end of the aforementioned time an auditory notification can sound for the fight to resume or be waived off. Any thoughts?
jabardelli wrote on Oct 31, '07, edited on Oct 31, '07
We don't need another clock to factor into the equation of who wins a fight. Ten seconds is ten seconds and then the referee ... a licensed individual who should be able to count to ten with the assistance of the official timekeeper slapping his hand on the canvas ... is to use his judgment when the fallen fighter has arisen to make a rational call as to whether the fighter is capable of resuming the contest or whether his degree of injury renders him incapable of so doing. At that point ... whether it be within 2 seconds after the gloves are wiped or 6 seconds makes no difference. Leave the time piece to basketball and football. Boxing is unique and a referee should not be put to the task of having to judge impairment by the tick of a clock when a fighter's well being is on the line. Health and well-being transcend the concept of victory and/or prejudice because of any delay in the resumption of the contest brought on because a referee is trying to be fair and safeguard a fighter's health and life at the same time. Remember, first and foremost, a fighter is a human being who has a life and a family to return to once the sound and fury of the ensuing battle has long ceased. A classic example of a referee doing the right thing and being oblivious to the concept of time is, of course, the Chavez - Taylor fight where Richard Steele set what should be the standard for every fight venue and referee in the world ... akin to the adage of Hippocrates who wrote --- "Physician do no harm" --- which equates to "Referee protect the fighter from harm."
Good call Biz! And I am smiling and laughing at your witicism ... sound like Jim Murray for goodness sakes! I still see McCline recline while the other guy is all but out on his feet and McCline reclines!
McCline will never be mistaken for a seasoned carpenter, Jab. ( i.e., not a very good 'finisher'.) Hey, I know of a 'cline that could have perhaps done better in that regard: PATSY Cline!
As far as the murray comparison, whoa...I am truly honored. I do have to tell you though Jabardelli: If you are a fan of my work, I'm sorry...
I'm afraid that's your problem, and not mine.
(LOL)
P.S - Not a bad question Deacon, but I would have to agree with Jab's answer on that one as well.
Referee, Judges-Officials for Calzaghe Kessler ( ) The man in charge of the action in the ring will be referee Mike Ortega from Connecticut, USA. The three judges will be Judge: Mr Raul Caiz (California, USA) Judge: Mr John Stewart (Pennsylvania, USA) Judge: Mr Massimo Barrovecchio (Rome, Italy. The supervisors are: WBO Supervisor- Mr John Duggan (Illinois, USA) WBA Supervisor - Mr Renzo Bagnariol (Managua, Nicaragua, WBC Supervisor -Mr Bob Logist (Brussels, Belgium. Calzaghe will wear black and white trunks and Kesller will wear red and white.
DID I OR DID I TELL YOU ORTEGA WOULD GET THIS FAVOR FROM THE BC FOR THE GREAT JOB HE DID SAVING SAM PETERS ASS IN THE 3RD AND JAB HOW CAN YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THAT THEN YOU MIGHT AS WELL RING THE BELL AT 2.52 IF A FIGHTER IS HURT OR COUNT AT SUCH A SLOW RATE THAT 10 SECONDS BECOMES 20 DID YOU SEE THE TJ WILSON- TRAVIS WALKER FIGHT WHEN THE REF SAW WALKERS ARMS DROP HE STOPPED IT EVEN IF IT WAS ONLY O,15 OF THE FIRST ROUND YOU CAN BET HAD IT BEEN McCLINE HE WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD AN EXTRA 8 SECS TO RECOVER .THE REF IS PAID BY THE PROMOTER NOT THE COMMISSION WHO DO YOU THINK HE GOING TO FAVOR .THE TRUTH IS THE REF HAS A SPLIT SECOND JOB TO DECIDE FOR THIS FIGHT THERE WAS A MANDITORY 8 COUNT THEN THE FIGHT CONTIUES
Snoop - That is "possible". I won't argue that. But there just doesn't appear to be enough there for me to fell justified and comfortable in making those kind of (direct) accusations.
As for the Walker-Travis fight...I don't know WHAT the deal was there, but I can tell you this much: It was a QUICK stoppage -- and a BAD stoppage.
travis walker was out watch his hands drop in slow motionone more punch would have knocked him cold like i said it a split secound job i have had TWO FIGHTERS KILL THERE OPPONENTS IN THE RING BOTH COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF THE REFS DID THERE JOBS THE RIGHT WAY SAMUEL WAS DAMN LUCKEY McCLINE HAS THE DAMAGED LEFT ARM OR HE HE HAVE BEEN ON THE SAME TRAIN
travis walker was out watch his hands drop in slow motionone more punch would have knocked him cold like i said it a split secound job i have had TWO FIGHTERS KILL THERE OPPONENTS IN THE RING BOTH COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF THE REFS DID THERE JOBS THE RIGHT WAY SAMUEL WAS DAMN LUCKEY McCLINE HAS THE DAMAGED LEFT ARM OR HE HE HAVE BEEN ON THE SAME TRAIN
As for this one here...(???)
Snoop, there are a couple of ways to look at it I suppose; first of all, the vast majority of fatalities don't occur in the 1st round. Second of all -- as callous as it may sound, this is not amateur boxing, and there are risks involved. The participants (much like race-car drivers) are aware of these risks, and are over the age of 18.
I truly don't mean to sound insensitive here, as I never witnessed a ring-fatality in person, and I hope to hell I never will, nor do I mean to sound "unreasonable" as far as stoppages go; I was in my late-teens or early 20's when Steele stopped the Taylor fight, and quite honestly -- I was one of the (many/majority) that went beserk over the stoppage. Time has since changed my view on that one. But pro boxing "is what it is", and these fellows (not much unlike race-car frivers or jockeys) are a bit of a "different breed", and aware of the risks.
* The matter of your guy Gamache in the infamous Gatti fight is a differenty matter. ( i.e., that wasn't exactly a 'level playing field'...)
Note - I said I would post this, and post it I did. ( poor Jim...if he isn't having heart problems -- he probably is now! ) in any case, I got the big fellows (Snoop) fingers working...;-)
No shit, huh? Wow...(I didn't know that...) As for the Scypion fight, I never saw it, but have heard/read about it. As for Jones-Scotland...that one was tough enough to watch on t.v. live as-it-was-happening, let alone in person...
BTW - The "your problem, not mine" was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek play on words there Jabardelli. ( It was kind of one of those one may have to read two or three times...)
( Just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand me on that one...lol ;-)
bizzack wrote on Nov 27, '07, edited on Nov 27, '07
Old-school prime-Dempsey style. (Hey, that's how we used to do it when we were little kids in my basement?) None of this 'neutral-corner' stuff. To confusing, and a guy could get lost. Bring back the one-man announcing booth as well. Get the guy that sounded like he was doing an auction or was a racetrack annonuncer...what was that guys name? Anyhow, I'll go out on a limb and say he's no longer with us a.k.a. "licked the oxygen habit", but by god Doc Deacon "The Fight Beacon" does damn fine impressions, and he can be annoying as hell when he wants to be. He might be a good replacement there. Also -- BRING BACK THE SMELLING SALTS.
* Or as I like to call them: The Max(imum) "Schmelling salts".
Also...
No cigarettes at live fights, but for gods sakes allow cigars and pipes!
Well...I don't remember what Guthrie said, but here is about all one Brian "Bizzy" Bizzack can say about Bos's woeful New York Knicks...
"THEY SUCK".
Good GRIEF Snoop...59 points??? I've seen Baseball and Soccer teams that put more points on the board than these fellows. Hey, do me a favor and on their way out of The Garden, pelt them from your apt window with a few eggs for impersonating a professional basketball team...
In getting back to the main topic here, while I say that there is not really enough 'proof' of bias/intentional wrongdoing here, it's not an 'outrageous' notion either. No, in other words -- it wouldn't shock me. I know of at least one other highly-respected longtime Boxing figure that said 'off-record' that he thinks it is very possible, perhaps even downright likely. *shrugs shoulders*
As for myself, the only real major problem I had with the fight was the DISPARITY on 2 of the 3 scorecards. I had the fight scored very, very close at the end, and Peter winning by one single point. How those judges had him winning by 3 and 4 points, I'll never know...
As for Mccline, he no doubt he has some punching power, but he needs to go to 'finishing school'. He also needs to lose a little weight (not alot, but definitly a little in my opinion. I think he should be about 250) and somehow work on his conditioning. But at 38 -- it may in fact just be too late. Also, he really shouldn't have messed with the mighty "K.O.K". The facts there are indisputable. (e.g., close decison loss in title fight, blows out his knee in title fight, comes within a hair of winning another big fight, but ultimately loses another close verdict...hey, next thing you know this fellow could get ran over by a milk truck when he steps outside...)
